.223 Ammunition Wallboard Test

[Sharpshooter]

I just finished reading an excellent report that was written by the NJ dept of Justice concerning the penetration capabilities of 4 different types of .223 ammunition fired from 2 different rifles with 2 different length barrels. in wallboards from CQB shooting distances. This has re enforced what I tell people quite often when it comes to a home defence weapon. A shotgun with #7/12 or #8 shot is better than a rifle or pistol. Even rounds that were designed to fragment and break apart were still penetrating all of their test targets. Some food for thought when considering a SD weapon.

Wall Board Test Using .223 Ammunition (www.njpdresources.org/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf)

[txscout]

You are correct that birshot penetrates the least in comparing rifles, pistols and other shotgun loads. However, birdshot is not an effective home defense round.

To incapacitate bad guys, you need to utilize loads that will penetrate deep enough damage vitals--Birdshot doesn't achieve this level of penetration.

That being said, most of the effective defensive ammunition as far as terminal performance goes, also tends to penetrate drywall--0,00,000 buckshot penetrates significantly less than pistol or rifle rounds, but is absolutely more effective than birdshot.

Unless you are being overrun by Tactical Quail, I would suggest nothing less than #4 buck for a home defense round in a shotgun--

[Sharpshooter]

Your statement about bird shot is simply not accurate. In the shooting distances that you will encounter in a home. Bird shot is more then effective enough, I have personally tested it my self and at distances under 25 yards it stays wadded up well after leaving the barrel and tends to hit the target like a slug without the danger of going through not only your target but things behind it as well. When I went through the LE academy we qualified with slugs , buckshot and bird shot. bird shot is used by agencies for the very reason that in a close up encounter in a building it will bring a bad guy down at close range and not penetrate half a dozen walls killing innocent bystanders. I do not know where you got your information but you obviously have not seen what bird shot will do at close range to targets. Most shooting encounters in a home setting are well under 10 yard mark. think about it.


You are correct that birshot penetrates the least in comparing rifles, pistols and other shotgun loads. However, birdshot is not an effective home defense round.

To incapacitate bad guys, you need to utilize loads that will penetrate deep enough damage vitals--Birdshot doesn't achieve this level of penetration.

That being said, most of the effective defensive ammunition as far as terminal performance goes, also tends to penetrate drywall--0,00,000 buckshot penetrates significantly less than pistol or rifle rounds, but is absolutely more effective than birdshot.

Unless you are being overrun by Tactical Quail, I would suggest nothing less than #4 buck for a home defense round in a shotgun--

[txscout]

Pray tell, what agency/organization, other than Quail Unlimited, routinely uses birdshot in it's arsenal for CQB scenarios?? I could see where an agency might overzealously protect themselves from lawsuits from "overpenetration", but in so doing are placing it's personnel in jeopordy utilizing anything less than buckshot in shotguns, even at CQB ranges inside structures.

I have seen plenty'o GSW's and other fun and exciting traumas, and the only incidence of birdshot that I have ever seen that took someone out was a self-inflicted/suicide #6 to the chest, at point blank range--Not pretty. It does make some nasty superficial wounds, however. Heavy clothing and jackets will deform the pellets, and even make it less effective--So will a BG+Drugs.

Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.....YMMV

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound

With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

[libertynews]

What these tests fail to take into account is that in a defense situation I'm not going to be shooting the walls. A bad-guy will stop a .223 just fine. With a shotgun, depending on load, choke, distance, is going to have collatoral damage within the house.

[txscout]

More fun reading/tests:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[Hoot]

More fun reading/tests:

www.theboxoftruth.com
ur link doesnt work its http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[Sharpshooter]

Please tell me when and where you went through LE school at. I went through training for the DOC and later the LE training in my home state and both use 71/2 loads in qualification along with buckshot and slugs. They do not shoot them because they are lighter and kick less. They shoot them because they are actually used when the situation is deemed to require it. As I said before a load of 7 1/2's to your chest at close range will take you out. I have witnessed proof of this. So please illuminate me with your concrete evidence that I am wrong. As you said your basing your diatribe on opinion. Also because you have only seen one fatality does not make it the bench mark. While I have personally not killed anyone with birdshot I know at close range it works. Do you want to bet a jacket will stop my 7 1/2 load out of my M1 at 21 feet? Think about it for a second.


Pray tell, what agency/organization, other than Quail Unlimited, routinely uses birdshot in it's arsenal for CQB scenarios?? I could see where an agency might overzealously protect themselves from lawsuits from "overpenetration", but in so doing are placing it's personnel in jeopordy utilizing anything less than buckshot in shotguns, even at CQB ranges inside structures.

I have seen plenty'o GSW's and other fun and exciting traumas, and the only incidence of birdshot that I have ever seen that took someone out was a self-inflicted/suicide #6 to the chest, at point blank range--Not pretty. It does make some nasty superficial wounds, however. Heavy clothing and jackets will deform the pellets, and even make it less effective--So will a BG+Drugs.

Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.....YMMV

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[Sharpshooter]

I will concede that ballistic test gelatin suggests that all bird shot makes a poor defensive choice. The problem is that the the people conducting the tests openly admit ballistic test gelatin also is not a definitive benchmark for what a weapon and ammunition will do or not do and can only opine that something is or isn't a good choice.


Here is a link to some very interesting wound ballistics data concerning shotguns

First a disclaimer from the site management about their test results. Also if you clearly read what they are saying. It is only opinion based on their testing.

***IMPORTANT INFO***

The reader must be advised that ballistic gelatin testing does not, and cannot reliably predict the incapacitation potential or "stopping power" effected by the various ammunition we have tested here at tacticalworks.ca.

Properly prepared ordinance gelatin used as a testing media simply approximates projectile wound profiles as observed in adult swine leg muscle tissue; it does not describe exactly how any projectile may behave in all conditions. Interpretation of the wound profiles must be limited to simple comparison of the two different tissue disruption mechanisms.

Far more relevant than the evaluation of one type of ammunition as compared to another is the weapon operator. There are absolutely no substitutes for quality training, effective & frequent practice, well developed tactics, and a high level of fitness.

***END IMPORTANT***


http://Tactical Shotgun (http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html)

[txscout]

Also from your article @ tactical shotgun regarding birdshot:


Observations


Small sized birdshot such as this #8 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures.



Forget about "just a jacket" @ 21 feet ---What about other cover in/and around the house? What about that 500 lb Solid Oak Entertainment Center/Armoire in the your living room that the BG is hiding behind? You still feel good about your ammo choice? You can expend all 8 rounds, and make nothing but "splinters happen"--and after that, how bout a "quick tactical reload" with a shotgun in the middle of foreplay?

What if you or someone in you department were the first one on the scene here at the courthouse in Tyler, when backup was called for, and whipped out your M1 loaded with "lucky #7's"? Someone might have become a statistic for several reasons. One of them was that this BOZO was wearing a flak jacket over a Level III vest....he too was concerned about over-pentration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Courtroom_Shooting

All I am saying is that if folks are going to use a shotgun for home defense, or even tactically, why not use the most effective defensive loads, period. Just because they are concerned about overpenetration doesn't mean anyone needs to "handicap" themselves, possibly permanently. There are a number of buckshot loads more effective than birdshot, that penetrate much less than 00 or slugs.

With the exception of the H.E. love that comes from the tender "plunk" of an M-79, there are no "magical bullets"--It boils down to shot placement(which only comes from training and practice), and motivation/intent.

That being said, I do think folks need to be mindful that every time a bullet leaves the chamber, their liability increases significantly. I also think those "uneducated/untrained" folks (apparently everybody other than LEO's) should either take the responsibility to plan for situations, practice and familiarize themselves with their weapons, and even attend classes.

Not peeing on bushes here--Just some fun loving healthy discussion

Cheers!! :)

[Headstrong]

Although unrelated to the wallboard test, since you brought up the Texas courthouse shooting. I saw the video right after it happened, for the AR filer's that didn't. It was a Colt AR 15 to the head that killed the bad guy DEAD!!!:)

[Lobo]

Your statement about bird shot is simply not accurate. In the shooting distances that you will encounter in a home. Bird shot is more then effective enough, I have personally tested it my self and at distances under 25 yards it stays wadded up well after leaving the barrel and tends to hit the target like a slug without the danger of going through not only your target but things behind it as well. When I went through the LE academy we qualified with slugs , buckshot and bird shot. bird shot is used by agencies for the very reason that in a close up encounter in a building it will bring a bad guy down at close range and not penetrate half a dozen walls killing innocent bystanders. I do not know where you got your information but you obviously have not seen what bird shot will do at close range to targets. Most shooting encounters in a home setting are well under 10 yard mark. think about it.

I have personally seen a young man of 18 or 20 walk to my ambulance after being shot with birdshot to the chest, inside a home from a 12 G. He was laughing & joking the entire ride in!! I WOULD NOT trust my life to it....

[IHC53]

That being said, Ive got my 870 loaded with #6BS. I live in
a small house with close neighbors.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ihc53/rw8axc.jpg

[Sharpshooter]

I have personally seen a young man of 18 or 20 walk to my ambulance after being shot with bird shot to the chest, inside a home from a 12 G. He was laughing & joking the entire ride in!! I WOULD NOT trust my life to it....


I have personally witnessed the effects of bird shot as well on two different perps that were neutralized by co workers of mine. Both were shot at distances under 30 feet both had nasty gaping holes in them and both perps died before the ambulance ever got there. One was damn near blown in half because of a shot taken at very close range in an enclosed area. I am basing my opinions on that information. You very will might have got to witness what you did as I once witnessed a man walk away from 3 158grain 357 mag hollow points to the torso , but the averages are against you in both cases . Do you wanna bet your life on them???? :confused:

[MrGoodwreck]

Im A firefighter, and I have transported a guy that was shot at less than 30 feet with bird shot that was also walking and talking just fine. I have also seen my friends dad with his face missing because he tried to suckstart his shotgun with Birdshot...


It is all about placement, and the amount of clothing. This kid walking and talking was wearing a carhart jacket, and coveralls...That was a big deal in his survival.;)

[Headstrong]

Im A firefighter, and I have transported a guy that was shot at less than 30 feet with bird shot that was also walking and talking just fine. I have also seen my friends dad with his face missing because he tried to suckstart his shotgun with Birdshot...


It is all about placement, and the amount of clothing. This kid walking and talking was wearing a carhart jacket, and coveralls...That was a big deal in his survival.;)

Well said goodwreck